Not trying to start a big deal here..

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Not trying to start a big deal here..

Post by Black Rider on Tue Oct 28, 2008 8:39 pm

but i'm actually kind of nervous about Obama as President. Clinton would have been more of the same Demo crap we always get but I think Obama will take us in directions we have never been. One I think could happen is freedom of speech being squelched in the name of hate speech. Anyway, I don't want the melee that would happen if I posted this at ze other board.
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Re: Not trying to start a big deal here..

Post by exo on Tue Oct 28, 2008 9:48 pm

WE're in for a whole world of trouble, I guarantee you that. Not necessarily from Obama, so much as the degree of power it will hand Pelosi, Reed, and Kicinich.....THAT is where the trouble is.
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Re: Not trying to start a big deal here..

Post by exo on Tue Oct 28, 2008 9:55 pm

Additionally, the single biggest problem that this situation has created is that it will be thrust upon us by a populace that has allowed this to turn into a POPULARITY CONTEST, not issues of substance. I can not count the number of people I've run into that don't have any real clue about the candidates policies, or could give a qualitative analysis of the potential end-game of those policies. Mostly, I just hear "I'm voting for Obama because I think McCain is an asshole".


I just heard Ron Howard talking about his suport for Obama, and at the end of it, he's spouting off about "this is a democracy, and you need to go exercise youre right to vote".....no, this is NOT a DEMOCRACY....this is a REPRESENTATIVE REPUBLIC, and if you can't be bothered to look at the details, PLEASE STAY HOME AND QUIT SCREWING UP MY COUNTRY!!!!!!!!

the Obama campaing is COUNTING on people listening to advice given by celebs like Ron Howard and others, to "just go vote"....COUNTING on his charisma to bring out the uninformed masses on election day, and turn this into a popularity contest that is based on "Obama says nice things, McCain is an asshole"......
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Re: Not trying to start a big deal here..

Post by BackFromTheDawn on Tue Oct 28, 2008 10:28 pm

I honestly don't know what to think. I only see snapshots of what they say or how other people talk about them and try to read between the lines.

I don't have time to research candidates properly and I'm so sick of the game and lies, I refuse to play ball...so much so, I don't usually talk politics with people.

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Re: Not trying to start a big deal here..

Post by exo on Tue Oct 28, 2008 11:44 pm

I don't blame you.


It just galls me to see the half truths being spouted as fact by the Obama camp, that are essentially preying upon the fears of the middle and lower class households during these tying economic times.

Case in point: there is one running now doing a supposed comparison/contrast of the proposed tax cut plans of the candidates, quoting some institute or magazine or whatnot touting Obama's tax proposals as being "Better for the middle class", when what is actually meant is that theoretically, a middle class family will pay lower taxes. that's not necessarily "better", if it results is cuts in services from a reduced tax base, if it restricts the economyoverall by shifting the tax burden around, etc...convieniently doesn't bother to brign up the fact that if you pay less into the tax system, the lump sum refunds that a SIGNIFICANT PORTION of "midle class" and lower houesholds (my own amongst them) DEPEND upon recieving to take care of "big ticket" items like vehicles and repairs....computers, etc....it doesnt' assess things like the net economic impact on the funds the government has to operate with, doesn't even remotely address the whole thing about how you impliment the EXPENSIVE ideas Obama has about what we need to do and change in this country by REDUCING the taxes the goernment runs on....things like when you have an ever increasing number of people relying on government assistance, how do you expect to keep that running by reducing the tax base....how do you expect to maintain the liquidity of assests on a national basis provided by those with incomes over 250k a year, when under Obamas plan THEIR rates increase.....

the overall net economic impact of the plans isnt' EVER addressed, people are just basically told "you get a bigger break and that is better"....which simply doe sNOT cover the truth of the actual impact.

that commercial ran 6 times in 2 hours of primetime television this evening. The Obama campaign is simply attempting to saturate the general public....those that don't bother to investigate and evaluate...with this message, because it SOUNDS good, not because of the actual substantive issues. And his campaing has enough financial resources to go thu with the gameplan.

I mean, all you have to do is look at the money numbers for the campaign finances.....No, Mccain isn't as charasmatic, and that ertainly affects the numbers to a degree....but people aren't realising that part of the difference in the $$$ numbers is that McCain has been one of the primary proponents of campaign finance reform for YEARS now, and he actually.....gasp....follows the principlse he's espoused on that front. Obama will pretty much take $$$ from whereover/whomever he can get it from......and it allows his campaign to work this "saturation" technique. They are, in essence, attempting to BUY the election.

On another front, the much ballyhooed by the right "partial birth abortion" thing....it's not whether his stance is for or against ANY form of abortion that bothers me....t's the couching his position in what essentially ammounts to nothing more than political doublespeak for expediency's sake that bothers me.......in PBA, the fetus is 3/4 vaginally delvered, with the full impact that has on the mother's system....yet he couches his voting AGAINST the PBA ban under the guise of "when the life of the mother is endangered". Um....Barak, buddy....if going thru with labor & delivery and/or carrying a fetus to this point are a danger to the mother, this method does NOTHING to reduce that danger......

But, hey, it sure "sounds" noble to vote no to something that doesn't make an allowance for the life of the mother, right Rolling Eyes

It simply, to me, indicates mindset and thought process (or, on the off chance that he himself hasn't really examined his defence for his vote, a lack thereof) that is NOT going to take this country in the right direction......
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Re: Not trying to start a big deal here..

Post by exo on Tue Oct 28, 2008 11:46 pm

Or, to say it simpler, I'd rather have a guy that is blunt and isn't afraid of the truth OR compromise when he feels it's in the best interests of this nation, rather than yet another person who is schooled in the art of political doublespeak.....
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Re: Not trying to start a big deal here..

Post by MetalH on Wed Oct 29, 2008 7:48 pm

I'm glad you started this thread, Brent. Part of the reason I created this board was to have open political discussion. I think it's important, especially this close to the election.

I'm on the same page here... I have not talked to one single Obama supporter that could tell me anything more than talking points or that McCain is an asshole. At work I was talking to a guy that said he thinks he's going to vote for Obama because he seems to have it more together than McCain. The sad part is that he's really into hunting and guns. Well.... Why would he be voting for Obama? I just don't get what people see in him. I've watched his speeches, I've seen his ads, I've read his website. There's no substance.

I hate the idea of raising taxes on people. Wealthy or not. There's a lady at my work that is a flaming liberal and she was talking today about how she'll have more money to buy stuff if Obama gets elected. Bullsh*t! What he says might look good on paper, but in the long run... Well, you can't cut taxes and raise spending. So he might cut something to start with, but to make up for it and to pay for all his programs and healthcare(which is another giant pile of crap), he's going to have to raise taxes somewhere else.

Joe Biden has said that something bad will happen in the first 6 months of Obama's term. Why would we want that? LOL! Vote for McCain! Smile
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Re: Not trying to start a big deal here..

Post by BackFromTheDawn on Wed Oct 29, 2008 8:56 pm

I don't think the system will get fixed until people stop focusing so much on the "major party candidates" and, maybe, pay attention to other candidates of the party. I'm not as in the loop as most are, but it seems to me the promise of choosing your candidate is such a farce when people only cover the parties "worth" covering.

People complain about choosing the lesser of evils...why not broaden your choices?

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Re: Not trying to start a big deal here..

Post by Black Rider on Wed Oct 29, 2008 9:37 pm

So he might cut something to start with, but to make up for it and to pay for all his programs and healthcare(which is another giant pile of crap), he's going to have to raise taxes somewhere else.

And the taxes he raises elsewhere will be higher then the cut.
Glad someone else realizes we aren't a Democracy. It's stunning to me how many have argued that point when I say that.
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Re: Not trying to start a big deal here..

Post by MetalH on Thu Oct 30, 2008 9:16 am

Ugh, next Tuesday will be a very anxious day for me.
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Re: Not trying to start a big deal here..

Post by exo on Thu Oct 30, 2008 5:31 pm

BackFromTheDawn wrote:I don't think the system will get fixed until people stop focusing so much on the "major party candidates" and, maybe, pay attention to other candidates of the party. I'm not as in the loop as most are, but it seems to me the promise of choosing your candidate is such a farce when people only cover the parties "worth" covering.

People complain about choosing the lesser of evils...why not broaden your choices?

This isn't going to happen until the opposition parties have enough $$$ to GRAB peoples attention, though. That's simply what we're dealing with. You have to be able to attract multiple tens of millions of people to have a shot, not the few hundred thousand folks that know about the "alternatives" I mean, you're literally looking at needing 40 MILLION votes to even be considered competitive.

And that's the problem with ALL the "third parties" out there. every last one of them fails to plan long term, they have a short-sighted view of things. They look at Perot in '92, with the way he cobbled a semi-effective campaign effort together in 6 or 8 months, and think"we can do that too", COMPLETELY glossing over the fact that the guy had BILLIONS of dollars he was working with from his own personal fortune....I mean, the guy literally BOUGHT his way into the election...he ran ELEVEN half hour television spots, for Pete's sake!

The simple fact of the matter, is that it take HUNDREDS of millions of dollars, spent over a multi-year period to make a viable candidate. That's the only way for these guys to get into the heads of the american voters....spend money, and get the name out.

Not ONE of these "alternative" parties has grasped this yet. They are content to merely be the chttering voice of moral outrage, and more than happy to stand on their little soapboxes, proclaiming "moral victory"......let me clue you in, in practical application..."moral victory" is what the losers and inneffective call defeat to soothe their egos.....the guys at the top of these alternative parties are satisfied with merely having a pulpit to shout towards the heavens from, and not a single one of them has the foresight and planning to look long term....they start an effort immediately after their defeat to get on the ballot in the next election, 4 years down the road, oblivious to the fact that the results wuill be the same, because THEY DON'T HAVE THE FUNDING UNDER THEM TO GET THEIR MESSAGE INTO THE HEADS OF THE AMERICAN PUBLIC. They are content to let their "alternatives" be little more than vanity projects, in esence.....What they NEED to be doing is planning not for '12, but for '16, or '20.


They also fail to realize that repeated efforts to get on the ballot like this may garner them some publicity...but it's because they end up being considered a punch line rather than a possibility.


I've got some more thoughts on this, but I find I am lacking the ability to properly express them in the written format at the moment.....
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Re: Not trying to start a big deal here..

Post by BackFromTheDawn on Fri Oct 31, 2008 11:11 am

Financial realities aside (a whole other rant for me), why doesn't someone get the "fair and balanced" media to cover them? Same reason no one thinks about them?

All those realities you just mentioned (partiularly the need to raise hundreds of millions of dollars to be considered viable) lend to my increasing anger surrounding the process. This is why I'm not voting...but, there's also a bunch of addendums on the ballot for laws to be passed, in this state, that I don't agree with (not that I know them all, but I've heard of one that doesn't sit right with me).

Damned if I do, damned if I don't.

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Re: Not trying to start a big deal here..

Post by exo on Fri Oct 31, 2008 1:59 pm

It's not the "media's" job to cover people and candidates if there's nothing compelling about them, though. Never has been. The guys that run these places are about making $$$, which happens by atracting attention to their various enterprises, and that WON"T HAPPEN unless the vewers/readers show up....because there's something interesting and compelling. There's got to be some attraction there before anybody's gonna bother paying attention. that's exactly where the publicity machines come in, and why the money is a necessary evil. Don't fall into the trap of believeing that there was EVER any such thing as an altruistic media out there.


Even going back to our founding fathers....they were fairly well monied compared to the average citizen of the day, and had some "name cachet" that helped focus the limelight them for their presidential campaigns. We're a HUGE country, geographically speaking, and it takes MONEY to get your name out to the people. Our "political system" still functions pretty much the same way it ALWAYS HAS, but now, instead of dealing with a few million people that were basically all on the eastern seaboard, we've got 300 million people spread out over one of the largest single countries (by landmass) ever concieved. the increase in magntidue simply amplifies the problems that have ALWAYS been present.
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